Description
Grab a seat at this fireside chat with Mark Arneill (Customer Success Manager at Gearset), Ben Coleman (CEO at Performa IT) and Adam Hooper (Head of Central Platforms at DPD UK) at DevOps Dreamin’ as they debunk the myths of enterprise organisations working with outsourcing partners.
They discuss:
- DPD and Performa IT’s journey together
- The success that can be achieved with an outsourcing partner
- The challenges of outsourcing
Learn more:
Transcript
We have two more sessions left for you this afternoon.
Today without further ado and to kick off the first of those sessions. We're gonna have Ben, we're gonna have Adam in conversation with Mark Arneil from Geerset. So it's all yours. Thank you so much.
I good afternoon, everybody.
As you can tell from the the big picture up there, my name is Mark. I'm one of the customer success managers here at Geerset.
And yeah, it's my pleasure to be on with Adam and Ben, from former and DVD today for this fireside chat. And it looks pretty like we're already actually just missing the fireside because we've actually got, like, some chairs. I kind of feel like a leader partner getting some fun at me and I'll be well away.
So guys, do you want to introduce yourselves? Sure. Yeah. So my name is Ben Coleman.
I'm CEO of performer IT. So we're a Salesforce consulting SI within the UK, and, we've worked with DPD for almost seven years. I think there. Yeah.
Hello. My name is Adam Hoefer. I have the grand title of the head of central platforms at DPD. Basically, we look after Salesforce telephony and all the other platforms that nobody really loves, but we say, oh, god, we'll have a go into Athens.
Again, we've worked with these guys for a very long time, know each other inside out and and do some really cool stuff with Salesforce. So, yeah, she had to chat about that, I think. Yeah. Cool. We'll explore some of that in a minute. So really the aim of this this by side chat is to, it's to try and bring to life a little bit around, like how enterprise organizations such as DPD work with outsource its organizations, like, like, performer.
You know, the idea of kind of bringing in bringing an outsourcing company can be a bit, a bit scary sometimes. So we want to sort of debunk some of those we want to kind of be quite honest about some of the good and the bad that happens, and kind of just tell you the kind of journey in the story that these guys been on together over the last seven, eight plus years, and continue to do so as well. It's a it's a great story.
There's been challenges, which we'll dive into a bit as well. So, yeah, so I think it'll start off if it's alright, Adam with yourself. Just kind of, kind of, why did you, why did you choose to go with an outsourcing partner rather than them, then build out the business. We have we have a team, in Birmingham, and all of us out of here is part of that team.
There's ten of us in the office, but not developers, we're not coders, right? We'll do everything up to code. So we'll do all the BA work, the requirements, the design, all the clicking, clicking and stuff, but we're not coders, right? We can probably read a bit of a stab at it, but we're not we're not great.
So we need we need help to do that stuff. The challenge that I have is I don't have the same amount of work every day or every work, every week developers. So I can't it's tricky to employ four of them full time because I may not have work for every day of the week, for all of them. So that doesn't work for us.
It gets very messy. And also then suddenly a project will arrive. I need to quickly ramp up people, but that takes a couple of months to go through the recruitment cycle. And then, you know, we we've unfortunately employed developers just hasn't worked for us.
We have to let them go. The quality just isn't there. So then then we look to somebody like perform IT to say, look, we we've got a need. Can you help us and are a big enough organization that you can scale very quickly, you know, we'll let you know with the weeks, notice, in two weeks, they've got this big project.
Okay. We'll find somebody for you. No problem. And and sort of, it sounds it sounds awful, I just I just pay you and you make it all happen, right?
Which which works really well for me. You sent me a bill and the quality is there, you look after the people, you deal with the HR stuff, I just know there's the right number of people in the right place at the right time delivering the quality I need, which makes my life really easy, which works really well for me. As a fairly lazy person, that's great.
So we have that. I think the other challenge to have as well is the UK, the UK market for developers is is quite challenging or it has been in the past for for people go out and contract at seven hundred eight hundred pounds a day. Why would you wanna come and work for me as an end user for a lot less money? Why would you not go out and earn as much money as you can, take six months off of the year.
In fact, we know what we both notice already does that. Take six months off the year, goes traveling around the world, and then goes back and takes another six month contract. Can't offer you anything exciting. I have an office on the edge of birmingham that looks over a train line.
Like, it's it's not it's not the same as doing you know, and the the freedom that comes with that is is is different.
I think what works well in terms of our financing is that because they're kind of the way we work with with formalities, we have a couple of people dedicated to us each day that do hotfixes and bugs and little projects, and then we come along and go right now. Here's a massive project. Let's work out the cost and we'll do it that way. But we race out through purchase orders.
So it's it's a CapEx rather than OpEx, which means it comes out different budgets. And that makes our financing really happy. It's not an ongoing cost. It's kind of, it spikes and peaks and troughs.
We plan for it. We kind of roughly know what we're going to spend each year, but it just makes our finest team a lot happier, which is a really boring answer I'm afraid of our money. But, yeah, so there's like a scalability to different aspects of the aspect to it. Let's And, yeah, and also, you just have a variety of people.
You ask three people, you know, this guy looks after UX, this guy looks after design. This guy does this. Like, I I can't I can't employ all those people because I just don't might do it? I guess, like kind of where we've got technical architects, solutions architects, those are people that you want do want to involve in a project.
But again, to Adam's point, you might not need them every single day, you know, for six months flat, where you know, we have those resources that we can kind of deploy as and when needed. And across our customer base, that, you know, we have sufficient work to keep them occupied for again to Adam's point, maybe you don't, you know, if you don't have sufficient work. Yeah. I mean, the variance that we have as well is where you do work so many projects, you have a breadth of experience that we don't have.
You know, we we we live in our little logistics DVD bubble and with it, you know, everything, but you guys with Klomongo helmet, with a previous customer or client, we did x y and zed, that's a much better idea. Like, we we, you know, we, we're good at what we do, but you have a level of experience to us could just spread over all these things. And I think what what also works really well is maybe that's just the way we work together, but it's gonna sensory of people. We've worked with partners in the past where we'll start a new project in incomes of different TA, incomes of different BA.
Incomes of different solutions guy. I suppose first two weeks getting them up to speed, whereas with you, we've worked the same people for five or six years, and they know it's inside out, you know, we'll just pick up a project off we go. Or I might have a question about something. Six years ago, which I don't know how it works.
And we'll go and grab one of the team and I'll go, Oh, yeah. I remember. It's it's it's the way you work is great. So that's that's great to kind of here, like reasoning, but you've you've you've brought in a formal idea or an outsourcing partner and things as well.
So, let's get into kind of like the more gc part of the conversation where like what some of the challenges of of working with a partner with an outsourcing partner, it doesn't have to be just formal, but as in what are those challenges look like for? So so DPD nightmare to work with. Okay? We're we're we're we're not.
We're not an easy one to people's work. We we Okay. So it's quite a closed room. The the DPD in my world stands different priorities daily.
Okay? So, which some people say it's delivering people's dreams, but it definitely isn't. Right? But it's it's different writings daily.
And Oliver, again, you'll agree. Right? Everything we do on a Monday is not what we're gonna do on Monday. It just it just changes constantly.
And that that can be a frustration to a partner. You know, when we got into discussions with you, the first thing we said is this is not gonna be an easy ride, right? Because we are we're at the forefront what we do, and our tagline is technology delivering, and we push and we push and we push, and we push Salesforce, we push our partners, some of them to break in point, we've got people that have walked out on us as a big business, but we're really successful in what we do, but you've got to be able to keep up with us. And and, I mean, we don't use the word agile because we think we're further than agile.
I don't want what the next step from agile is, but there's a big point, we're better than that. And and that's challenging to keep up with. Right? I'm a nightmare to work with as well, and I'm aware of that.
I I have a habit of going into circles and working things, because it's been that long now since I've been hands on with Salesforce. I still think developing the live system is fine, right? Other other people have very strong opinions against that. I think it's fine, right?
And I know not, by the way. Right. But, usually if something was broken in the system, the first person you look at is me, because I've definitely probably broken it. But then you guys have to come up on a mop up after Right?
Yeah.
The biggest the way your biggest challenge lies is is mopping up afterwards.
To be to be serious, the biggest challenge we have is communication Yeah. We we sit in our office and and you guys are whatever you're dotting around doing, whatever you're doing. And if we sit next to each other in the office, we can at things, and we can go, let's do a quick diagram, and let's think about this. Well, that's fine.
It makes sense to us because we're there, kind of, making eye contact and things whereas, you know, we do meet up and we do things that you guys come into the office, but generally, it's an email or a quick Zoom card. And it's about we need to give your information to understand the crazy thing that we've just invented in our head and the context as well. It's usually really important. So I think it's the That's taken us a long time to get right.
You know, we're seven years in now, and and when we started, it took us a long time to find our group. Right? And we we would have frustrated conversations, and you and I would have frustrating conversations because we just hadn't quite got there yet. But but now, you know, we understand that things need to be in a diagram and things to have context and why are you doing this?
You know, because it's just important that you guys understand. Well, that's that's the biggest thing. So if I'm Ben from your your opinions, then, like, sounds like Adam's a nightmare to work with. But, like, in terms of the challenges you're experiencing or have experienced and how you get through some of these, what does that look like from from your seat?
Sure. Well, I think the way that we engage with DPD at the time when we engaged little bit different because as Adam said, you know, he's got a sizable team. He's got a lot of business analysts. He's got project managers.
He's got, you know, administrator's advanced administrators. So, you know, he's got a lot of skills in house, and really, I think, to that point, back we were used to engaging and completely owning a project, so doing all the project management BA admin development testing, you know, own and deliver the whole thing. So I think that was a bit of a, you know, a change for us just kind of working out, you know, and understand and what that looks like for DVD and how in reality that will actually work and how we'll share work and to Adam's point, also, you know, communicate you know, what what what DVD might think is is a great requirements document we might think, okay, you know, that's missing a few things, or or or not, you know, so so there's those sorts of things to do.
We we have a good information, but we can have quite a blunt and direct conversation. We do. You know, you phone me the if you do that, you're gonna break sales or stop it. And, like, when our team had done something, like, our team are really worried if you deploy this, it's gonna blow up.
Like, okay, stop now. Like, we'll go back and rethink this. Like, it's it's quite challenging to be able to turn out to a customer and go, you're being stupid.
You could do. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. No. You've got to be, delicate and diplomatic, you know, in terms of of how you communicate.
And as Adam was saying, you know, communication is key. You know, we've got it, off- Pat now. You know, we've got lots of systems and processes in place. We have cadence of meetings, be they daily stand ups, project meetings, you know, kind of meetings to discuss BAU.
And then also strategic ones where we're talking about longer term plans. So, you know, that's definitely something that you've got to get in place. I think one of the things that we touched as well is, is speed. So and that's obviously really relevant to gear certain DevOps, as Adam said, you know, they they've got a huge, you know, kind of backlog of innovative projects and they want to deliver them at speed.
You know, continually and not stopping, but also on time on budget to quality. So I think that's where Adam was you know, can be challenging. It definitely was. And I think sort of, for us, probably the period over COVID, you guys pushed us really, really hard.
I mean, the the the volume of projects, we rebuilt a whole course because I drink COVID, didn't we? Yeah. And rolled it out. That that was hard to tell some long weekends Yeah.
To be fair to you guys, we didn't even know you were working on weekends. You just did it. Yeah. And then we, which, you know, great.
That's what we, we, we, we, we wanna deliver, you know, we don't, we don't. Well, I guess that will lead people to the next question as well, which is like, as you've got through challenges and built yourself through those challenges, like how would you say the partnership has strengthened over that period of time?
So I think, I think we're investing in each other's success. So, you know, you were grown in size phenomenally since we work together. We're sure that the same level of quality, so which is all great. But we're we're invested in your success.
We want you to be successful because we want you to keep working with us and doing cool stuff employing great staff, but then you want us to be successful so we keep working with you ultimately, right? And it's a very symbiotic relationship. We get we get some cool stuff, let's be honest. Right?
We we we do develop some really cool things. You know, we're very lucky that between us, we've we've designed and built what is currently Salesforce the best example of service cloud in Europe, right? We we did that during COVID, right, that's three years old now, and it's still used every month as a reference by Salesforce. And we designed that, right?
You and I did that. We sat on like, literally Ben and I did that over Christmas in twenty twenty, and then into January. And, like, probably the proudest thing I've ever done. But we've done cooler stuff since that.
And we keep pushing and pushing. And what's really great about your team is I'll speak to them on a Friday afternoon and go, I've got a crazy idea, and that we'll go it. And then if they really like it, they'll give it their they'll give it their weekend in their free time and build it because they're as geeky about Salesforce as I am on our team, you know, which is which is cool, and we understand each other really well. But it has taken time to get there, right?
It's not it's not. Doesn't just happen. Absolutely, and I think, you know, I think time, is important because, you know, yeah, we have to, we have to get each other, we have to understand, how each of us works, our businesses, strengths, weaknesses, you know, supplement processes adapt to them. And I think ultimately what that's done is that's now built, you know, a really solid open relationship, you know, feel that, you know, we are.
Well, you've helped us to be better than we do. So, you know, I've I've run this team for a very long time. And when I started, it was a bit like the wild west, right, because no one was that bothered about Salesforce at DPD. I could sort of get away and do what I wanted and no real processes, and it was fine.
But now kind of the biggest platform in the company. I've gotta have some proper processes, which which is great for my team because I know what they're doing and great for you guys, but you you've helped us develop those processes, you know. Devops with using, you know, Jira and Monday properly and sprints, you know, sprints wasn't that thing until two years ago. We just kind of deploy stuff and hope for the best.
You know, it was frustrating. Know how to solve it. And you probably had some very open conversation with you about, well, how do you work with other customers? We're like, oh, okay.
We need to sharpen up a little bit here. And, no, it's it's official for both of us, right? But we we learn from you guys all the time as well, which helps. So you've always had a massive, like, in terms of, like, divvying our cycle hey, developing on the platform.
Doing. There's been a massive impact for the DPD in in terms of what the outsourcing company has been able to, but we've been able to provide to you as well. Well, and the reason we have say is because you guys said you should look at gear, sir. We need it at all, and actually, you know, all of our other people love it.
It's great. And we wouldn't have known about it unless guys suggested it the same with Yeah. Some of the products that we've got, you know, you you you you challenge us to be better, which is what we weren't a partner.
It's awesome to hear.
I didn't pluck the gates out there either, by the way, that's just come coming from them. There's a there's a chat coming out. Which We'd, I mean, as Adam said, you know, just open, you know, happily plug gear set in terms of we, we adopted it ourselves as a business because we, you know, we want to make sure that we're delivering on time to quality to budget for all of our clients and set helps us do that. But, you know, as as we said, you know, not using that with DVD was holding us back. So it just made sense for us to adopt it. And it has made a huge difference, you know, shorten the, the, you know, the development times where we're all on, we're all much more aligned. We what's happening, the management of environments is fantastic.
And we've still got our way to go, but, you know, massive game changer.
Awesome.
So what do you see? Is it like the next steps in terms of their relationship? Start with you. Get them on that well, as well as building more cool things, that's kind of, that's our ambition in life.
There's a lot of cool stuff in Salesforce. We've already had a bit of a health tech. So our platform, our portal, our platform is thirteen years old now. We've reduced most of legacy code, but there'll be some stuff floating around somewhere.
We've got apps in there that need removing. We need a big tidy up basically, a big spring clean. And we we did attempt to do that this year, which put put six weeks aside in October and do it, and I've done none of the jobs that were given to me. And I'm sure I've always done all of his, but, other people in the team haven't, like, just to be too busy is what it is.
Right? So we need to put some time aside and just grasp all your guys and go, just tell me how to fix all this stuff, what have I gotta do.
We have challenges now this time of year, been a parcel company business time here. The call center gets very busy.
We've got to make sure that's performance. So kind of we go into kind of maintenance mode now for sort of six weeks and you guys are pretty much on call twenty four hours a day in case something breaks.
Another day will do because we've we've done all our work. And then year, we just we just keep pushing and pushing. We've got some cool projects lined up.
Yeah, we'll see what it takes us. I think it's what I've had tell you now what we're gonna do next year and it'll change next week. So it's not it's not worth me telling what we're gonna do. You gotta do, right? You gotta take EPD, right?
But yeah. What are you thinking? What's from from your side where you, like, ways you'd like to see things progress to you with the relationship and what you want to do with VPD? So one of the things that that is progressing, in the background is, so off of the relationship that we've had with DPD UK or CTPD is a large National Group.
We also support the team at DVD Island. We've done their implementation and we kind of, you know, work on various projects with them but Adam's kindly introduced us to other parts of the group within Europe. So there's a couple of, European countries now that we're just starting to engage with. So I kind of see that. And very much, you know, the great thing for Adam is, you know, DVD UK is seen as a kind of leading light, you know, the shining star of, you know, this is how to do Salesforce really well within the group. So all the other countries kind of look towards Adam and the UK team to sort of follow their lead. So we're, you know, I'm I'm, you know, I'm sure we can help some of the other European countries.
Match up and, you know, improve their Salesforce implementations. I think another thing, just in terms of efficiency and so on, you know, we haven't got into, gear set pipelines yet. That's something that we need to do. You know, CICD was a game changer but we need to, we need to keep pushing.
And I think also one of the things that I've noticed recently is that where as Adam was saying earlier, you know, we've typically, helped him with a lot of development resource and technical architect. But we're also finding now that as Adam says, you know, get spikes where the business is demanding projects, pretty quickly. You know, Adam has now called on some of our business analysts, some project managers to, you know, help deliver, you know, kind of iron out those weeks. Yeah.
We've got a project where we need to be ages for eight weeks. Now there's a waiting list of nine months, and certainly I can't wait that long. I'd rather go and grab Charles that works for you. And he'll come and do a great job.
You know, just we know him.
At some point as well.
Absolutely. Yeah. No. As Adam said, you know, it's thirteen years old now the system. And there's definitely some, that, you know, I can think of a few areas, particularly within Service Cloud, where it's kind of creaking under the, the volume and there's there are, projects that we're looking at where we're, we're now thinking, hang on a minute.
We need to step back. We can't just rush into this because there's definitely some areas that probably need re architecting when we might need to rethink how we're going to do some of the future projects. So, yeah, that's definitely on the months for next year. Cool.
Conscious of time, we've got a few minutes left, but, we're going to leave hopefully of Adams and Ben's final thought, but Jerry's bringing slow. But if you were to give like advice to the audience, here and the audience listening online about bringing in a consultant are working with an external provider. What would be like your top three for ish things? So I think, communication with talks about can't communicate more about communication.
Ben, Ben's is won two awards this week for investors and people. Like you are the best small business on the Farager people. Gold work for gold. Gold.
Right? Which is exactly right. But not many companies win that, and and that is one of the reasons that we work with form IT because actually you do really care about the people that work for you, and we care about them as well, have that that really powerful relationship that works well. Like, that's a massive achievement that you've won this week, and it shouldn't be underestimated.
I think we've worked with we've worked with big as in the past, and and it just hasn't worked for us. We not that we want to be we don't want to feel important, right? We're not we're not that special, but we at least like some of people and people to listen to us. And we had a project years ago where we there were lots of bugs.
We got handed a massive bill for the end of it, and we were pretty outraged we'd be expected to pay for things that weren't our fault. So we found out with those people. Whereas if we'd had proper communication and talked about it, we probably would have solved that. It is communication.
It's it's about something goes wrong, just being able to pick up the phone and have a conversation. I I can't go back to communication, but I think that is actually the answer. Yeah. If if one's with you is having the right to work with, you either gel with some people or you don't we gel quite well, and and your team get on really well with our team, and also just that shared vision, you know, you wanna do cool stuff, we wanna do cool stuff and, you know, it's, you know, there might be your team, but really they sat next to us in the office really virtually.
World one team. It's got no segregation. You are us and we are you. Yeah. And I guess that's a slightly different question for you, Ben, we would be around what would sort of put you off working with?
I know this might be a bit of a talent, like, unfair question, but, yeah, what would put you off working with with a customer? I guess, you want to order customers, but are there sort of like red flags you see that you think, well, actually this is going to be a bit of an interesting project or something? Yeah. Well, I think if I look back, you know, over the years and look at, you know, our customer base and look at those clients who still working with us and some of those who are perhaps not.
I think some of the things, that I would probably pick up on is, as we were saying, you know, that openness, that transparency, that honesty, that being able to, you know, we don't play the blame game, you know, problems happen we talk them through, we figure out what went wrong. We make sure that it's not gonna happen again. But we're, we're completely honest, open and honest. And I think that, you know, if I look at you know, clients that we continue to work with, you know, years on years.
You know, we've got that, and we've got that trusted relationship. So more, I see where, you know, it works really well is where it's a true partnership, rather than just a kind of transactional thing where it's like, do a project, but, yeah, kind of, I think it's just Yeah. That's it. I think as well, we'll come to you and also work.
And you will sometimes you don't need to do it like that. There's a much cheaper way of doing it, which actually we've, we really like, you know, it's easy for a partner to see you as a cash cow. And, you know, we spend a lot of money, but because my more money, but your guys will come back and go, you don't, you don't do it like that. And we trust you to make sure that we're making the right choices, and I think there's there's that that trust is a big part of it as well.
Yeah. Yeah. I think actually another thing that we, you know, we, you know, we do see is, you know, over the years, we've seen a lot of people wear, that the the communication's not great from the clients. So they're or either that or they're that might be high things from us.
And we're we're kind of more like, you know, if, you know, if you were thinking this or thinking that, it's just just be easier just to just to tell us so we can adapt to that.
And I think also sometimes where you just get that kind of, I think sometimes clients can be a little bit over optimistic maybe on on what they think they can achieve. So, so there's always a lot of pressure on us to, you know, or we need to start on date, and we need to deliver on that day.
But most of the time, I would say projects don't come in on time because actually we're waiting on the client, you know, have you done that testing? Have you signed off those requirements? Have you you know, whatever procured these licenses, etcetera.
So I think, you know, that's that's something that, obviously can cause issues, I think. So it comes down to four things in which he's like honesty trust, communication, communication, and realism.
Essentially. It's just being really sweetly tough. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. But, yeah, we, we, you know, we like to think like you say, you know, but that's we can work with with all organizations, you know, and one of the things that's, you know, we so we do we are very flexible in that we have, you know, clients who want to engage with us in different ways.
You know, we've got clients who who want us to manage everything from a sort of managed service persist perspective or clients who say, actually, I've already got an in house admin team, but they are going to need support because there's kind of up to here. They can do those things, but beyond they, they need, you know, someone that can bring in additional skill levels from. Exactly. That, you know, they can kind of consult with us.
And the same with projects, you know, is it it that actually, you know, they've got a team.
We work with quite a few companies who've, they've got an in house development team, but actually they've just hit a bike of there's more development, there's more projects that they can handle. So they need to augment their team temporarily maybe for three months, six months, whatever it is, or take a project, off them. And I think the thing is, you know, so it's that, you know, we take it really seriously that, you know, we are owning that project and we will make sure it gets delivered. You know, come you can become extension of the client.
I would say it from that point of view. Brilliant. Oh, guys, very, very much. Open it to the audience if there's any questions straight away.
I have two. That's fine. Number one, where this the product ownership lies for the year, most honestly, like that. And then the second line, how did you, handle tech debt over the years or was your intro earlier about your goals for next year?
Is Right.
Should I start? Yeah. So I I own the product. I'm responsible for Salesforce across DPD. We enjoy you to be the guardian of Salesforce, if that makes sense. You you you get in under the bonnet and do all the cool stuff and say, here's a problem, here's a problem, but I'm responsible for making sure that If it doesn't happen, the Salesforce falls over, it's me that gets the phone call, and then my phone bill and cry, and and ask for help. Right?
In terms of tech debt, we'll always have tech debt because we'll move so fast. We'll take shortcuts if we have to. We shouldn't do what we do with humans.
The biggest issue that we have is is forgetting about the shortcuts we've made or the things that we say, oh, well, we must go back and fix that, and we don't. We've got email templates from two thousand and thirteen that we don't use anymore. They've just gotta go spin, but we just don't have the half an hour sit at work out. We really should do.
It's a really simple job, just delete, delete, delete, delete, but actually there's much more important stuff to do. It's not causing any problem, but at some point, it's gonna get in the way. We're gonna a limit or something. We've got we're about to hit the limit of, custom fields on the case page.
I need to sit down and work out which ones to delete, but that's a good couple of are actually just forget what what we struggle with, I think, and where you guys do help is all the five minute jobs or the, can you just kind of work this out for me? We'll always have ta ta ta ta ta just because it's been move. But if you know it today, you can do something about it. If you kind of align to it, then it's, then it's a problem.
Yeah. I think, so the with a lot of clients when we engage with them. We'll often start with a health check. So we'll basically take a really depth look at their org and understand and look at, you know, what's the tech, you know, the tech debt that's already there.
And that's really important because, you know, we definitely certainly have hit in the past the issue where, the clients our, you know, our orgs fantastic. There's nothing wrong with it at all. It's all hunky dory, and then we, you know, we develop, some new function until you go to deploy it and actually, oh, hang on a minute, you know, you haven't got enough test coverage and this, this was missing, and there's a problem there.
So, you know, so it's important for us to do that, that health check. And I think in terms of technical debt, I think it's one of those things where, you have to start somewhere. You know, it could be, you know, if you've got a thirteen year old org, you know, there could be quite a substantial amount of debt there. And, you know, we have had some clients in the past.
You said, I just want to sit and completely address all of that in one, and then move on. But generally it's more what we do as we tend to look at it and say, okay, we know the size of the entire issue, but actually based on your pipeline of projects, that are coming up. We really should address these areas first because they might impact on that project. It so we can basically come up with a plan over time and a prioritization of where to start with that technical debt.
Great. Thank you.
Any more time for questions. So these guys on machinery will be sticking around for a beer after. So if you want to grab them and have some more questions, then then please feel free to do so. Or if you've got other questions, then feel free to push them towards me over the next few days, and I'll I'll get the responses guys as well.
But thank you, Ben and Adam for for joining us today. Thanks for having us. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Thank you.
